MEADOWS BLOG

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Avalanche Control - A New Approach

Hi folks.

For the past year, Mt. Hood Meadows has conducted extensive research on developing an improved  avalanche control (AC) program that will provide for the safety of our employees conducting avalanche control, and to better serve skiers by getting our in bounds terrain  – in particular Heather and Clark Canyons –  open more frequently and routinely after storm cycles. This blog is a continuation of prior blogs addressing snow safety at Mt. Hood Meadows and is intended to:
• Review our in bounds terrain and the associated avalanche threats,
• Inform about current options to mitigate this threat, including current procedures,.
• Present the option we are most likely to pursue and the approvals process required for implementation,

The Terrain

 
The terrain in Heather and Clark Canyons is big, varied (convex slopes, rock cliffs, steeps, trees, etc.) and uniquely spectacular. Combine this terrain with an ample supply of northwest snowfall and you have the recipe for some incredible skiing, snowboarding, and avalanches. Mitigating avalanche hazards in this varied terrain is challenging, particularly during storm systems. It’s hard to get to -- the Cascade Express chairlift is frequently crippled by a large volume of rime ice and it can’t run early, if at all.
 
Snowmobiles and snowcats are ineffective in pulling the patrollers uphill through deep snow and whiteout conditions, so patrollers must climb on skis or wade uphill with heavy packs of explosives to reach their control objectives. Under such conditions, more patrollers performing snow safety work is not the answer.  In fact, such a strategy would further compound safety and productivity challenges in this area.
 
Our current avalanche control program is one that we have used effectively, for many years and includes a series of both passive and active measures.  Passive methods include avoidance and closure. While there are areas within our permit area which we avoid altogether, we use gated ropelines to manage our avalanche closures, as the map below indicates.

Unfortunately, temporary closures are only respected if they are infrequent and of short duration. Long delays in opening Heather Canyon after a storm cycle frequently lead to closure violations. The threat of lost skiing privileges, a fine or possibly death if overtaken by an avalanche, apparently are insufficient deterrents.  Safety of our employees and the public is the primary concern of Mt. Hood Meadows Ski Resort and the Mt. Hood National Forest. 

Control Zones are often used to help define the terrain in avalanche control programs.  Typically, multiple avalanche paths grouped within one zone may have similar terrain features, similar weather patterns, and require similar hazard reduction measures.  You can see the different zones on the map below.  Each zone generally requires its own unique approach and technique. 

Mt. Hood Meadows ski patrol routinely provides active control measures into these areas, including the use of:
• Compaction – Primarily skier compaction, which works best in Lower Heather Canyon, but must thoroughly disturb every snow layer in order for skier/rider compaction to be effective
• Ski Cutting – A major staple of most ski patrol control teams, but is not suitable for hard or deep slabs on the unconfined convex slopes that prevail in Heather & Clark Canyons,

Deep slabs are possible as shown here in A-zone, beneath the Basalt Cliffs  
 
-- you definitely wouldn’t want to try ski cutting this slab.
• Explosives – Using hand charges is the most common method of Avalanche Control delivery in use at Meadows today. Individual explosive charges weighing from two to ten pounds each are thrown, suspended or placed onto the avalanche path by our control teams.

 
Despite the inherent and obvious hazards associated with handling explosives, using them can reduce control team members exposure to avalanche hazard.
 
The sequence below shows the effective use of hand explosives to release a slide in A-zone.

 
Sometimes a 10 pound explosive isn’t enough so a larger explosive is delivered by tethered sled precisely into a control area.

 
We also use an avalauncher (like the one pictured) which uses compressed nitrogen to throw a 2.6 pound explosive charge designed to explode on impact. Avalaunchers are often times not effective during storm periods as the light-weight charge can be blown off course. And during storm conditions visual confirmation is not possible to determine whether avalauncher “shots” have been effective.

Here’s one of the key challenges of avalanche control work in Heather and Clark Canyons: Because they both funnel into Lower Heather Canyon all of these zones have to be controlled before the terrain below them can be opened. Our crews have to blast their way from one zone to the next, first controlling the Basalt Cliffs, then Upper Heather ridge, on to Clark Ridge and down to Accordion Bowl.

 
This also means that all the explosives for this trek must be carried in, so our patrollers are performing this work wearing 70 and 80 pound backpacks filled with explosives. Meanwhile, other teams are controlling Heather Ridge, Clark Canyon and Jacks Woods.
The lower canyon can only be opened once the upper potential avalanche areas have been controlled.

Control teams that climb the ridge to reach the upper Basalt starting zones are faced with a very big challenge. These starting zones are huge unconfined convex rolls that get steeper the farther out you go. These are some of the most dangerous types of slopes for control teams to be on. Control teams here are also frequently hampered by high winds and poor visibility. The snow surface is often wind packed and very firm which requires the hand charges to be tethered to keep them from rolling down the slope. “Tippy-toeing” out onto a huge convex hard slab, in a “whiteout”, to tether a five pound booster to your ski pole is extremely dangerous. There is rarely a safe route, and there is no place to hide.

 
I have the greatest amount of respect for our patrollers who serve on our control teams. They perform their work professionally and precisely, in extreme and inhospitable conditions, with no margin for error. The graph below shows the number of patrollers on the Basalt and upper Heather Ridge routes conducted over the past several seasons.

  
So that brings you up to speed on our current avalanche control program.

There are other options to performing control work used in other parts of the country. After careful consideration we’ve determined that most don’t deliver the margin of safety or accuracy that we need here in our challenging environment. For our situation, the safest and the most effective avalanche control measure is a military weapon, an option we are currently studying with the intent to acquire and install. Specifically, a M101A1 105 MM Howitzer like the one pictured below, located at Las Vegas Ski and Snowboard Resort.

The 105 MM Howitzer has the ability to deliver appropriate payloads of explosives to remote and inaccessible starting zones with precise targeting, even during adverse weather conditions. That means that control work can proceed during storms, even in whiteout conditions, confidently and precisely. That will enable any required hand throwing or cutting by teams to proceed more directly to those areas. This means we can open Heather and Clark Canyons more safely and potentially more quickly following storm cycles, depending on the weather and snow conditions. It also means less risk to our patrol crews. These weapons are administered by the US Army Tactical Command based at the arsenal in Rock Island, IL. The army “loans” the equipment to another government agency such as the Forest Service or a state highway department with the cost of equipment refurbishment borne by the proposed user which, in this case, would be Mt. Hood Meadows. Military weapons are used for snow safety programs at other ski areas such as Mammoth, Alpine Meadows, Taos, Jackson Hole, Alta, Las Vegas Ski & Snowboard and by highway departments in Colorado, Wyoming and Washington.

The acquisition of the Howitzer and construction of the building is a top priority for Mt. Hood Meadows. In addition to the normal USFS permitting procedures, which includes environmental analysis in accordance with the National Environmental Policy Act, our plan must also comply with and be approved by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the Department of Homeland Security and the U.S. Army. We are working closely with Forest Supervisor Gary Larsen, pursuing a plan which could allow us to construct the firing platform and magazine, and acquire the weapon for use as soon as the 2008/2009 ski season, provided USFS permitting can be achieved in the near future. Here is his perspective:

As Forest Supervisor, I was asked to add my perspective to this blog. I have never blogged before, but welcome the opportunity. While every ski area avalanche management situation is unique, there are a set of factors that need to be well-addressed in the administration and management of any ski area avalanche control program. Among them are:

• the level of avalanche risk the public is exposed to and how public exposure to the risk is managed,
• the level of risk assumed by ski area employees and the ski patrol in controlling avalanches,
• the interaction between weather, avalanche risk, and opening of potentially threatened ski runs,
• environmental effects, and
• cost and difficulty of administering and managing the avalanche control program. 

We (MHM and Mt. Hood National Forest) have become increasingly concerned with the level of risk the ski patrol and MHM employees are facing in their current routine avalanche control. MHM has explored a variety of methods for control. Representatives from the Mt. Hood National Forest and MHM visited Snowbird ski area in Utah a month ago to examine their avalanche control program because theirs is one of the best in the nation.

We found out that indeed MHM employees and ski patrol are exposed to greater risk than Snowbird employees and ski patrol. We discovered a high level of public acceptance of the use of military weapons and a very effective system for communicating with the public about risks, planned avalanche control times, and a high degree of management of public exposure to avalanche hazard and control. We also discovered that the environmental effects of military weapon use are smaller than with other techniques because of increased accuracy and significantly smaller dud rate. Lastly, we affirmed the importance of using a multi-faceted approach to controlling risks associated with avalanches and avalanche control — a comprehensive avalanche control program.

MHM has made a proposal to the Mt. Hood National Forest to improve its avalanche control program in several respects, the most significant of which is the proposed use of a military weapon. As we have evaluated their proposal, we find it to be comprehensive and well-thought through. If we approve implementation of their proposed program, risks to the Ski Patrol and MHM employees will be reduced very significantly, risks to the public will be significantly reduced, response times after large snow-dumping storms will be shortened significantly allowing use of some of the best runs while snow conditions are still excellent. The overall environmental effects will be less in comparison to their current methods. The one-time initial capital investment required for the proposed avalanche control program will be high due to acquisition and refurbishing the weapon and construction associated with its shelter and explosive storage. The annual operating costs will also be higher than the current approach due primarily to the training requirements necessary to safely operate the weapon. MHM is also including investment in other avalanche control tools as part of its new comprehensive plan.

The only environmental effect changes that will require analysis are for the installation of the new weapon shelter and explosive storage — an analysis that we will conduct under a categorical exclusion. MHM and the Hood River Ranger District are consulting with stakeholders and local officials as MHM finalizes its proposal. We will look forward to considering the proposal when they submit it after having made changes as the result of their consultations.  The Hood River District Ranger has indicated to me that she would solicit additional comments from stakeholders when we receive the final proposal before she makes her decision.  From my perspective, this proposal by MHM represents a significant long term investment in the safety of the Ski Patrol, MHM employees, and the public, as well as an investment in providing high quality services to the public.

--  Gary Larsen, Forest Supervisor, Mt. Hood National Forest.  April 2, 2008

Comments

Grim said:

Sounds like a "Win-Win" to me! Better, more effective  AC with lower risk to MHM Employees.

Matt's reply:

Grim:  You got it!

 --  Matt

# April 2, 2008 11:40 PM

sds said:

Matt

Thanks for the comprehensive depiction of hazards involved in opening Heather Canyon--99.9% of your skiing public doesn't even have a clue to the level of risk and exposure your patrolers go thru week after week during the ski season to open the canyon--glad you are addressing that problem.  Hope you get a big gun!

Matt's reply:

sds:  Thanks for your post and your continued support this season!

 -- Matt.

# April 3, 2008 4:47 AM

Powder Hound said:

Thank you for this detailed overview of the challenges to open Heather Canyon!  I've always respected these challenges and can only hope that a better system is put in place soon so all of MHM terrain can be skied/boarded on powder days.  I still find it amazing that after a day when HC is open and over-nite we get 3" of new snow that the area can't be opened before 11 a.m. or sometimes at all; drifting is understandable but if the appropriate avalanche work was done the day before this won't produce a huge slide.

Once again thank you.

Matt's reply:

Hound:  Thanks for your post and support, particularly on this important initiative.  As you well know. Heather Canyon is a big area with potentially big snow and big hazards!  We aim to improve safety, reliability and timeliness with this program.

-- Matt.

# April 3, 2008 7:16 AM

Capt. Powder said:

Matt,

Great info awesome job, Is there any way MHM patrol would give put togeather some on site classes for us? I here MT.Baker is doing that and it is very successful program for all.

Thanks.

Matt's reply:

Cap'n:  Yes, this something that we are planning to do for next season through our Snow Sports Learning Center and MHM Pro Patrol.  Stay tuned for more info on this topic this summer.

-- Matt

# April 3, 2008 8:37 AM

David said:

It would seem that it's a no-brainer....Acquire the military delivery system, appropriate trained "gunners" and build platform and storage facility....then roll on better, safer, more effective AC.

I don't envy you guys having to deal with multi-layered bureaucracy. Kudos to MHM if you can get this done in time for 08~09.

Matt's reply:

David:  Thanks for your post and continued support.  We are going to do everything that WE can to achieve this goal for next season.

--  Matt.

# April 3, 2008 8:37 AM

Melissa said:

Very cool post! I really appreciate the in-depth analysis of AC. Makes me really glad to have such a great crew at MHM.

Thanks!

Matt's reply:

Melissa: Thank you for your post - I will share it with our patrol and snow safety crews.

--Matt

# April 3, 2008 9:45 AM

Buster said:

Bring on the howitzer!  Ignore the nay-sayers and tree huggers that will probably want a lot of time and $$$ wasted in endless studies and public hearings.

I grew up in Tahoe and the howitzer platforms have been in successful use for decades.  This would allow you to open HC sooner and with much less risk to your patrollers who now slowly traverse the canyon and toss explosives below their position.

See you Saturday.

Matt's reply;

Buster:  Thanks for your continued support.  We continue to work with interested groups within the environmental community on this and other initiatives.  Their voice and input is important -- just as yours is -- to MHM.

-- Matt

# April 3, 2008 10:18 AM

Sinecure said:

Nice write-up. Interesting read.

I love the Howitzer at Alpine Meadows. Its a great alarm clock on AC days. My kids know its going to be a "freshie-freshie-pow-pow" day when the howitzer starts bombing at 7am.

Matt's reply:

Sinecure:  Thanks for the post.  The firing and detonation of the howitzer is similar to the charges we have been using for decades.  What we would be achieving with this change in delivery system is improved safety, effectiveness and timeliness.

-- Matt.

# April 3, 2008 11:02 AM

John said:

Matt,

Thanks for a great post.  I hope that you can get this set up by next year.  It sounds like a great plan that will improve safety for everyone and hopefully allow for a more timely and consistent opening of Heather canyon.  

John

Matt's reply:

John:  Thanks for the post and your support.  You have got a good understanding of our game plan!

-- Matt

# April 3, 2008 11:04 AM

Bill said:

Matt,

Great post and very informative.  But wouldn't one additional Howitzer located on the floor of Heather below Memorial Bowl also help getting the additional lower terrain opened sooner.  Let's go for the gold, not the silver.

Bill

Matt's reply:

Bill:  Thanks for your post and question.  A couple of thoughts for you:  1.  Any device, structure, lift, etc. located in the "gut" of Heather Canyon approximately above the runout to the Heather Lift will likely have a real short life.  2.  We will continue to use a variety of means and methods to perform AC work at Memorial Bowl to get it open as soon as it as safe as we can make it.

-- Matt

# April 3, 2008 11:38 AM

Paul C said:

Thanks for the great post. The diagrams and pictures really help us to understand the challenges involved in ensuring our safety. Wow, how safe is it for a ski patroller to stand directly under that 15 foot slab break line? I'm glad to hear that MHM plans to acquire a Howitzer and it looks like it will be a win/win for safety and timeliness.

Matt's reply:

Paul C:  Thanks for your post an support.  Yes, the installation of a howitzer will be a significant improvement in delivery, safety, and effectiveness.  It will become another important tool used to get Heather Canyon open as quickly as possible.

-- Matt

# April 3, 2008 11:40 AM

Chris said:

Matt,

Excellent post.  I would like to see more emphasis on how incredibly cool it is using a big military gun to trigger slides.  The sheer awesomeness is off the charts.

Joking aside it's nice to keep the diligent ski patrol out of harms way if possible.  People’s safety should always be paramount.  That appears to be evident in your decision making process.

Cheers,

Chris

Matt's reply:

Chris:  Thanks for your post.  You are right on the money -- safety for our patrol, our other team members and our guests is #1 at MHM.

--  Matt

# April 3, 2008 1:36 PM

yak said:

My vote is for it also, for the reasons already mentioned, chiefly increased safety. I'm really glad you laid everything out and went through the decision-making process right here on the blog. Before I read the post, I was skeptical, but if the duds are fewer and the accuracy of the gun is as on-point as you say in all conditions, then I'm fully with it. How would this effect the frequency of running the Super Bowl Snowcat?

I'm also for some sort of Avalanche safety classes open to the public. I've been looking for level 1 classes, but the availability nearby hasn't agreed with my schedule...

Matt's reply:

yak: Research on the effeciveness and safety record of the howitzer, performed by MHM and USFS, indicates that the dud rates and safety aspects of this particular military weapon are compelling.  Regarding the impact the howitzer would have on Cat Skiing in Super Bowl, that's tough to say.  Snow Cat access to this terrain is not governed by AC work alone, it also has to do with the construction conditions of the "snow road" cut in by the cat, wind / drift conditions, and snow conditions.  Having said that, it is our hope that we can open a hiking / climbing route to Super Bowl with greater frequency and earlier by employing combinations of the howitzer, hand charges and ski cutting in this area.  This approach may not be as glamorous as Cat Skiing, but it will hopefully appeal to those who are stoked for a minor hike to achieve some truly remarkable terrain.

-- Matt

# April 3, 2008 2:14 PM

Chris said:

Any concerns about missing your targets?  With the angle of Heather Canyon and the rest of the lifts just a hair higher (from the north) doesn't it seem likely that shots that miss high could make their way onto open trails?

Shooting skills aside; wind, humidity, and the amount of powder in the charge will greatly affect bullet trajectory, and other resorts have missed their targets in the past.  Will all shooting be done before guests arrive?

By the way, I'm all for it!

Matt's reply:

Chris:  Thanks for your post and excellent questions.  Regarding accuracy, all targets will be carefully selected and dialed in so that accuracy and consistency can be maintained.  This is obviously a very high priority and is carefully monitored / regulated by USFS, BATF and MHM.  The weight and fire power of the ordinance are also carefully managed to optimize accuracy, payload and effectiveness.  Firing will only occur very early in the morning, well before the resort is open to guests, and will be contained well within the MHM permit boundaries only.  Also, look for new and additional signage throughout Heather Canyon and our permit area regarding AC work, as well as additional information on <skihood.com>, the Concierge Desk and both upper and lower Patrol Headquarters facilities.  Moving forward, I think you will find a pretty signficant expansion and increase in communication from MHM Patrol on AC work and other safety issues throughout the MHM permit area.

--  Matt

# April 3, 2008 3:01 PM

Bunion said:

Matt, I have ben involved in ski area avalanche control at several different CLass-A areas for 24 years.

Your descriptions of procedures and protocols are pretty standard and seem to be reasonable and take into account employee and guest safety. To me this is the primary focus of all avalanche control within any ski area.

The only thing I find to be troubling is the contention that MHM patrollers face a more dangerous or daunting set of obstacles than the Snowbird Ski Patrol. Apples VS Oranges say I. All avalanche control involves risk and exposure and there is no way to compare one areas hazards with another effectively.

The idea of a Howitzer is probably prudent, but no matter what, the control teams will still have to run hand routes once the fire mission is complete. Military weapons will allow your patrollers to proceed with some cover shots but it is not the final solution.

Additionally, there was a presentation given several years back at the ISSW (International Snow Science Workshop) by Marty Schmoker, you may want to look into that study. www.avalanche.org/.../art66.html

Good luck with your updated program.

Matt's reply:

Bunion:  Thanks for the post and the support.  Comparing HC to Snowbird terrain is indeed apples and oranges, yet the nature of the threats is somewhat similar.  Snowbird Patrol has been super helpful in providing quality input to our proposed program.  A big "thanks" to them for that!  Marty Schmoker, along with several other seasoned AC professionals, has also been involved with MHM Patrol in helping design and implement this program.

-- Matt

# April 3, 2008 3:18 PM

Kevin Carr said:

What a great blog entry.  Keep up the good work!

Matt's reply:

Kevin:  Thanks for the support!

-- Matt

# April 3, 2008 3:56 PM

SkiLikeCrazy said:

Good work on this one. A lot of people really don't know what you guys go through to get HC open every day. I remember seeing those same pictures of the slide in A-zone in the Oregonian during January and I have to say THANK GOD FOR SKI PATROL. I mean, what if a person skiing down had set that off? I also saw an article in the paper this morning about you guys and your plans to acquire the howitzer. Thanks for all the work you are doing to make this happen.

Matt's reply:

Crazy:  Thanks for the post and the support.  The howtizer, if approved, will be a big improvement to our current AC program.  It is a significant undertaking by MHM, but very important.  We intend to continue to pursue this one with vogor and a genuine sense of urgency.

-- Matt

# April 3, 2008 4:14 PM

Questions? said:

I see lots and lots of talk of AC but what happened to the other half of the blog that was supposed to come with it, BC access?  

Ciao

Matt's reply:

?'s:  Thanks for the post.  Avalanche Control and Backcountry Access are two significant, related, yet independent topics.  Given the complexity of the issues associated with each topic, it's tough to cover both effectively in one blog.  Know, however, that we are working closely with USFS and the environmental community on our boundary policy.  Similar to this blog posting, we envision posting a joint blog with USFS on the MHM boundary policy when we know where we are on the approvals process for the howitzer.  Stay tuned!

-- Matt

# April 3, 2008 4:52 PM

Mike said:

Great post, very informative.  Nice to see some info that is relevant to serious skiers.  Nothing like the sound of Howitzers in the morning to get excited for a powder day (and knowing you can ski some terrain).  Now about that backcountry policy...

Matt's reply:

Mike:  Thanks for the post and for your support.  Regarding backcountry access, etc., please see our response to Questions below this post.

-- Matt

# April 3, 2008 5:29 PM

ShaugyDog said:

Quite pleased to see MHM pursuing this option. Better late tnan never. One has to wonder what your predesesser was doing the previous 14-15 years. Minimizing costs I suspect. Now that MHM is stepping up to the plate and taking the initiative regarding opening greater, more challenging terrain, why not take it one step further, and open up your ski area bounday to backcounty terrain, and the Mt. Hood Wilderness zone? The vast majority of ski areas throught the Western U.S. allow the public to access land adjacent to their permit area, including your neighbor across the Canyon. This is often done thru control points, where the requirements are often a transciever, probe, partner and shovel, and often as not, no such items are reqired. Ever seen the gate @ Bridger Bowl or Jackson Hole? Granted if this control point were manned, MHM would have to hire more patrollers, but that need is already there. Having skied 20 or so major areas throught the Western U.S.and North, I am confidant in stating that MHM has the most restrictive backcountry access policy of any area in our Western region, and you very well may be #1 in North America. I realize MHM can't have a blanket open border policy for all their skiers wishing to access the Mt. Hood Wildernss or even White River, but there is certainly some leeway for greater access for skiers and skinners who come prepared, and are willing to take responsibility for themselves.    

Regards, ShaugyDog

Matt's reply:

Dog:  Thanks for your post.  You raise several important and complex issues that will be covered in a future blog.  Personnally, I don't disagree with any of your comments, but keep in mind there are many other perspectives that must be considered on this issue -- environmental community, USFS, Federal Governement, etc.  Stay tuned for more on this one!

-- Matt.

# April 3, 2008 8:33 PM

Steve Again said:

First of all cool post, very comprehensive with lots of interesting pics and explanations. I have nothing but respect for the job the Prp Patrol does at Meadows.  But let's be truthful. A fixed gun has been discussed as the only viable means of doing "blind" control work in and above Heather for YEARS. I personally suggested it in Dave's Blog several times. Kudos to you for finally taking some action.

A couple of observations that might further expedite the opening of Heather:

You still need more bodies. I have heard various members of the patrol say several times that they do not have the man power to open areas any quicker. On stormy days bag Cascade and concentrate on Heather. I think the majority of your customers would prefer to ski Heather in powder than Cascade in a white out.  

Don't rule out ski cutting in the lower canyon. With low density snow like we were blessed with this year, ski cutting is effective. If there are little to no results above, ski cut the known danger pockets in Moon Bowl, Absolute Magnitude, etc... It is quicker and cheaper than throwing more bombs.

Save Accordian for a 2nd pass. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in almost 20 years I have never seen an Accordian slide round the corner to the main Heather run out. There is a natural bench at the bottom that slows and stops slides. Delaying the opening of Accordian only means another run of untracked later.

Hopefully you get the gun. I'm sure it will help in many ways. While you have the Forest Services attention how about opening up the boundaries. The rest of the mountain is public land. Other ski areas allow access from their permit area onto Park or Forest service land. Once you leave the ski area you are on your own and better be equipped and know what you are doing. Rescue if needed is not the responsibility of Meadows and can even be billed to the party needing rescue. The patrol can stop being cops and concentrate on safety with in the ski area boundaries.

You seem to be on the right track lets keep it rolling.  

Matt's reply:

Steve: Thanks for the post. In the future we will be increasing the number of patrollers but it does take some time to train and hire. We do and will continue to ski cut in those areas when that is the best method. Regarding Accordian Bowl, we can not perform control work on Accordian while the other parts of the canyon are open - people traverse once they have access. Thanks for your comments - boundary management is a subject for a future blog.

--Matt

# April 3, 2008 9:55 PM

Sam said:

Great blog post!  Thank you for the information and pictures, I have a much better perspective of Heather Canyon. I hope this plan works out.

Matt's reply:

Sam:  Thanks for your support!

-- Matt

# April 3, 2008 10:56 PM

Mark P said:

Thanks for the details information is never a bad thing, I think more people will be supportive of your efforts when they have good info.  That is why being accurate in your signage is important.  Many, many days I ride the Mt. Hood express 1st thing in the morning on a weekday and the sign in the upper terminal window says Cascade open, and it is not.  Or the electric signboard at shooting star says heather is closed and it is open, or vise versa.  I had a ski patrol issue around the parking lot and the vertical walls and potential fall into the lot and it took 3 days to get a call back and as far as I can tell 2 weeks later still no fix.  So inbounds issues still need lots of attention.

On the Howitzer:  Its about time.  Technology is a good way to combat safety and manpower issues.  I hope that at least once a season they will have demonstration day so people can see how the equipment works and how effective it is, plus the wow factor.  

Hope you are prepared for the 'friends' of Mt Hood who oppose everything anyone has ever done or will ever do anywhere on the mountain. I have a feeling they will be opposed to this one too, surprise, surprise.

Thanks again for keeping us informed and I hope this works out for all of us.

Mark

Matt's reply:

Mark:  Thanks for your post and observations. We are working on making many additional improvements to our in-bounds signage and safety awareness so watch for those next year.  Also, thanks for notifying us when you see potential hazards around the area -- we can and will fix potential safety issues that we observe or are made aware of.

Regarding the howitzer, it would be tough to do a live public demonstration due to strict safety measures.  We will look at making a cool video, however, which should get the job done for our interested guests while maintaining the rigorous safety procedures that will be in place.  Of course, timing on that will be a function of permitting, which brings us to the approvals process.  We continue to work with our partners in the enviornmental community, alpine recreation groups and the USFS on this project.  Hopefully by continuing to proactively collaborate with these groups, we can acheive the required approvals in a timely manner.

-- Matt

# April 4, 2008 7:12 AM

snodog said:

Matt, thanks for writing up a detailed plan. I think the safety of ski patrol and guests is paramount. If artillery is necessary for increasing their safety then I think it is a good idea.

One part of your article that did feel misleading is when you wrote:  "In addition to the normal USFS permitting procedures, which includes environmental analysis in accordance with the National Environmental Policy Act". It is my understanding that yopu are petitioning for a conditional exclusion from a NEPA review for this project. I am not judging the merit of this, as I don't know enough about the effects of building the shelter, I just think you should be as transparent and clear with your guests as possible.

Thanks

Matt's reply:

Snodog: Sorry for the tardy reply.  We agree with the concept of being transparent on this and other projects at MHM.  The NEPA process is just that.  USFS will publish a scoping letter, there will be an opportunity for public input, and so forth.  We look forward to keeping you updated on this process and your continued involvement.

 -- Matt

# April 4, 2008 8:20 AM

A Passholder said:

Great post! The information on current AC procedures is very informative, and the Howitzter sounds fantastic!

Matt's reply:

Passholder:  Thanks for your continued support!

-- Matt

# April 4, 2008 8:37 AM

Jack said:

Avalance control is a great thing, cuz anyone that has been in one knows what a life changing event it is.  Thanks patrol, you should get more props and less crap.  Oh yeah, can I shoot the howitzer.

Matt's reply:

Jack:  Thanks for the kind words -- I will pass them on to our deserving Patrol Team.  Regarding shooting the howitzer, that's a negative -- but thanks for asking!

-- Matt.

# April 4, 2008 9:31 AM

Brent said:

Great blog. I learned some things I didn't know. Now if only there was a way to get Cascade open quicker when it is covered in ice.

Matt's reply:

Brent:  Thanks for the post.  Regarding getting Cascade open earlier when it's major league caked with rime ice, as you must know, that' remains a formidable battle for our crew that they fight repeatedly with resourcefulness, vigor and honor.

-- Matt

# April 4, 2008 9:32 AM

Jason Craveiro said:

For those that are interested, Snowbird has a video of their gun in action on their website:  www.snowbird.com/.../december9_2007.html

The rest of the video is pretty good too.

Matt, thanks for the continued updates, hopefully those with less experience in high risk areas have a great appreciation for the exposure your crew has, and just how deadly it can be when things go wrong.

Matt's reply:

Jason:  Thanks for the link and  the support!

-- Matt

# April 4, 2008 9:38 AM

John Q said:

great post,very informative.It's always good to get a look at pictures and information about the Clarke and Heather Canyon areas.It is a very interesting area and one of my favorite areas due to the openess of it.I am in full support of this Howitzer and anytime military equipment can be put to the good use of shredding and skiing is great.Will this cannon significantly increase the time HC and CC are open and also do you guys have plans in the pipeline to open the S&R area for the 08'-09' season?

Matt's reply:

John Q:  Thanks for your support and your questions.  The intent of deploying the howitzer is to improve safety, effectiveness, reliability AND timeliness -- particularly in big time snow cycles like we have had this epic season! 

Yes, we are looking into how we can open up additional terrain within our permit boundary that has previously been closed.  Look for more information on this topic later this coming summer.  I'm stoked about this one for sure!

-- Matt.

# April 4, 2008 10:33 AM

Ex Lift Op MikeI said:

I would love to ski Heather and Clark more often and feel safe about it. BUT, what type of projectiles are going to be used? This could be a major environmental hurdle. Are standard military issue, HE-105mm DU (depleted Uranium) going to be used? (Uranium decays to Lead). Either material leaves a moral question, is it worth throwing Uranium/Lead all over our great mountain?

www.globalsecurity.org/.../105t.htm

About a year ago, (or more)someone from the rocky mtn area (?) developed a new type of air propelled (or??)avalauncher, but was very expensive, but very accurate. I couldn't find anything about this on any searches. Are there any other options that are as accurate as a Howitzer without throwing Uranium/Lead?

Matt's reply:

Ex-Lift Op Mike:  Thanks for your post, and sorry for the delayed response.  I actually took a few days off with my family to attend a funeral back East.

Any, Mike let me clear up a few misconceptions you may have.  The projectiles we propose to use are standard military ordinance that DO NOT CONTAIN URANIUM.  The vast majority of materials that make up this ordinance is vaporized upon detonation.  Fragments from the steel shell casing, which are very small, rust and deteriorate quickly (we know this not only from detailed reports from other ski areas, but from our own experience maintaining many steel components at the higher elevations of Mt. Hood for 40 years!).  The nitrogen powered avalauncher you described is a slightly fancier, but no more effective, version of the one we have been using for many years.

Regarding security issues, trust me when I tell you that the protocols, training, regulatory oversight and documentation of the implementation of a howitzer are awesomely effective.

Peace.

-- Matt.

# April 4, 2008 10:35 AM

slolorus said:

 Awesome! Great pictures and info.

 If you get this done, you will no doubt, be hailed as a hero of Meadows history.  We have some incredible terrain that is easily accessed when its safe. I think improved access to these areas will increase the reputation of Meadows drastically.  

 Where would this howitzer most likely be placed? I think it is about time. Heather Canyon is no joke and I'm sure its one of they most snow laden, avalnche-prone ski areas in the country. I have no interest in dying in an avalanche and greatly appreciate the efforts ski patrol makes.

 Break out the big guns!!

Matt's reply:

slolorous:  Thanks for the post.  First of all the heros of MHM are the many members of our incredible Team -- including of course MHM Patrol.

The howitzer would be located in a self contained structure approximately 600' down the leading edge of Shooting Star Ridge.  This location provides optimal targetting for the key control areas.  The compact structure housing the weapon would be nestled next to some medium sized mountain hemlocks to help obscure its visability.  Portions of the structure will likely be burried under snow in the winter which will also help minimize visual impacts.

You are quite right, Heather Canyon provides some of the most spectacular and dangerous skiing / riding terrain in the Pacific NW.  Howitzer or not, it's vital to respect this area at all times.

Thanks for your respect and appreciation of the fine job MHM Patrol does every day.

-- Matt 

# April 4, 2008 10:38 AM

Ex Lift Op Mike said:

EVERYONE that goes into Heather Canyon should be required to read "Snow Sense" by Jill Fredston and Doug Fesler. Most everything about HC, slope aspect, slope angle, and prevailing winds make it prime avalanche territory.

Matt's reply:

Mike: Thanks for the post and the reference. The more educated about snow safety those heading into the canyon are the better it will be for everyone.

--Matt

# April 4, 2008 10:46 AM

Katie said:

This is great news!  Hopefully the Canyon will start opening BEFORE NOON!  

Matt, I'd like to introduce you to the term DAWN PATROL! Last weekend the canyon didn't open until NOON, because blasting didn't begin until late morning.  Do you really think I should be hearing explosions at 11:00 am?  This should be complete before I even get to the mountain.  Again, I emphasize DAWN PATROL.  I understand that we all like a nice breakfast and warm latte' in the morning but ski patrol should be out there blasting at 5am, that's their job.  

Matt's reply:

Katie: Thanks for your post, and sorry for less than timely reply!

Let me clear up some misunderstandings you may have.  Sunrise on that day was around 6:15AM.  Although Patrol is enroute to HC much earlier than that, it's obviously tough to toss hand charges in the dark.  Even Special Forces has a little trouble with that concept.  We do not pursue hand routes in the dark for obvious safety concerns.  Regarding the sensitive nature and volume of control work to make Heather Canyon safe for our guests, this was clearly documented on our recent blog post.  It would appear from your comments that you either did not read that post, or do not understand it.  I would be pleased to meet you at MHM at 4:30AM any morning we do AC work to help further your understanding of the signficant efforts made by MHM Patrol to provide for your safe enjoyment of the unique terrain MHM and HC offer.  Be prepared for some aggressive hiking, bring several power bars, some water, extra shirts and a positive attitude.  Finally, be prepared to purchase latte's for each of our Patrollers at the end of your tour.

-- Matt 

 

 

# April 4, 2008 11:20 AM

Nof said:

Excellent post! Alot of people have no idea the risk they take poaching the canyon. That picture of that release in A zone is just amazing. The cascade tower ice tree is another amazing pic. I don't envy lift maint up there pounding away with a mallet. For everyone if they haven't seen it. Here's a good vid of actual AC work and a hint at the exposure/risk these guys take. http://www.skipatrolfilms.com/

Get the big gun! and possibly move the pneumatic gun to the tree'd ridge above ClarkC/Accordian for fine tune use on the main face of Lower Heather. Or make it SnoCat towable for mobile op's! Get'er done Forrest Service guys! Environmental Impact....Nobody gets killed by it (The Environment)

Matt's reply:

Nof: Thanks for the suggestions and your support.

--Matt

# April 4, 2008 11:29 AM

Capt.Powder said:

Matt,

Would the discharge of the big gun delay the opening of shooting stair? would the new building be built where the current canon shack is on ridge just above shooting stair, 6,300 ft.

Regards.

Matt's reply:

Captain:  No, the howitzer operations would be complete prior to opening the resort to the public in the AM.  The mount / building location is approximately 600' down from the top of the Star lift on Shooting Star Ridge.  We will leave the avalauncher where it is for now as it is useful for certain control work applications.

Thanks for the post.

 

-- Matt

# April 4, 2008 11:50 AM

RN said:

Looks like every post is in favor of getting and using a Howitzer.  Good!!!  I'm visiting here from Idaho for a month or so.  Just spent Spring Vac. Week here with pretty good dumps and very, very little open "steeps", and was very surprised and disappointed!!!  To say the least!  Some locals I talked to were irrate, to say the very least!  My family used to live right below Snowbird.  So I spent alot of time in that area skiing and boarding.  Howitzers seem to have been working great there and elsewhere for a very long time, as really steep terrain is open at Snowbird, (and Alta too), immediately after huge dumps of very light, and possibly unstable powder.  I've been thinking of moving here be closer to the ocean, and MHM has some great terrain, unfortunately I did'nt get to ski most of it on the spring break powder days, and neither did anyone else.  My ski patroler friend said there were alot of complaints...., as there should be.  I'm really hoping you folks can and will get a Howitzer for next season!!!!  Having nice steep terrain is of no use to advanced and expert skiiers and riders if it's not open during and/or immediately after snowfall!  Can't buy a season pass at a place like that!  Very glad to see you folks have a plan to fix the problem by next season, although that does'nt help us this season.  Better late than never, I quess.  The Howitzer will make it so much safer for patrolers, and everyone else too.  So, is there any new news about getting a Howitzer in the near future?  Does it look good for '08/'09 season?  Your guests are obviously all for it!  

I also agree that opening your boundries to bc skiers and riders, should be allowed.  Avalance/bc courses would therefore be a great idea too, like other resorts have.  Thanks

Matt's reply:

RN:  Thanks for your post and your passion.  We are aiming (no pun intended) to achieve operational status of the howitzer by next season, pending USFS approval.  This should not be probelmatic in my opinion as we are simply changing the delivery method for a program that has been in place for many years.  All in an effort to improve safety, efficiency, reliability and timeliness. We'll keep you updated on our progress right here.

Regarding boundary issues, we also continue to work on this issue with our partners in the USFS and the enviornmental and alpine recreation communities.  Stay tuned for more on this topic this summer.

-- Matt.

 

# April 4, 2008 11:54 AM

Meadows Lark said:

Very imformative post, good read & love the pics.  Big Gun, cool.  More people in Heather, less in park, cool.  Safer, cool.  Always wondered why it wasn't done earlier.

Peace.

Matt's reply:

Lark:  I knew we could count on your support!

--  Matt

# April 4, 2008 1:00 PM

Bk said:

Excellent detail.  Your patrons NEED this.  Heather needs to be safe during business hours.  With this latest spring burst of powder, I rode up lifts with at least 5 skiers who were "bragging" about ducking the rope early.  The deterrence of personal penalty is absent in the mind of these skiers.  They clearly need to be looked after.

It seems like they "sense" the opening and that it must be safe by now.  Then the flock just keeps circling over there on Shooting Star.  They HAVE to do it.

A suggestion for helping out us out with the opening:  How about a text messengering system to sign up for??  10 minutes til Heather Opens?  You could help kill two birds with one stone...spread everyone out on the hill and keep that guy behind the ropes, because he has some information. 

Matt's reply:

BK:  Thanks for the post.  Aside from being against the law, ducking ropes and disregarding closure signs at MHM creates a very unsafe condition for our guests and our Patrol.  As we work to expand and upgrade our snow safety and avalanche control operations throughout our permit area, we will also be managing our rope lines and closure areas with more vigor in order to maintain a high level of safety awareness and to help protect our guests and our Patrol from snow hazards.  This will include additional cooperation from the USFS and Hood River County Sherrif's Department.

Regarding your suggestion about text messaging terrain openings, that's a very interesting idea that we will discuss.  Thanks for the input!

--  Matt

# April 4, 2008 1:18 PM

Backcountry Ski Mountaineer said:

Hey Matt,

Thanks for the detailed post, I appreciate the explanation and photos you have provided to me and the public on this subject in your blog and in the informative Oregonian story.  I ski area at Meadows and other areas from time to time, but these days I mostly ski and climb in the backcountry, including Cooper Spur, Wy'East, Snow Dome, Newton Creek and the South side route off the summit of Mt. Hood.  

I was wondering how your plans to do control in the Super Bowl area up to or near the boundary might trigger slides on the Wy'East face.  The safety of your patrollers and customers (including myself and my friends) is really important, but it is equally important for climbers who start at midnight to go up Wy'East in the winter.  I estimate that over a hundred people or more each winter travel on these routes.  As someone who also frequents the backcountry I am interested to learn more about how backcountry skiers and climbers will be protected.

Thanks for taking the public's input.

Cheers,

BSM

Matt's reply:

BSM:  Thanks for your post.  We share your concern about backcountry skiers, riders, climbers, etc.  Who are travelling above or adjacent to the MHM permit boundary.  We no more want to negatively impact the backcountry experience and safety adjacent to our permit boundary, than we wish for our operations and employee / guest safety to be negatively impacted by backcountry activities adjacent to our permit boundary (particularly above it!).  We will be pursuing a multi-faceted strategy to insure this does not occur including the establishment of buffer zones at our boundaries (both sides), and several different means of communication with the backcountry community.  From our meetings with backcountry groups, and many independent discussions with folks such as yourself, we are knitting together a proactive communications strategy now that would be in place before we commenced operations utilizing the howitzer.  Education and communication will be amoung the many cornerstones leading to the success of this initiative.  Stay tuned for more updates on this issue.

-- Matt.

# April 4, 2008 6:46 PM

Jason said:

Fantastic job with a very comprehensive description of the new AC plan, but I feel a bit conflicted. As a season pass holder, I am excited about the prospect of a safer, more frequently open Heather Canyon.  On the other hand, I often use Pea Gravel Ridge to access skiing into the Newton Creek drainage. Occasionally I do not access this terrain via the Heather Canyon runout, thus do not see the gate posted at the HRM lot.  I fully assume personal responsibility for risk assessment while skiing uncontrolled backcountry. However, I am concerned about "friendly fire" while skiing outside of (yet near) the MHM permit area.

Matt's reply:

Jason:  Thanks for the post.  We share your concern.  We will be establishing buffers on both sides of our boundaries where AC work may occur.  We will also be establishing several different communication outlets for Patrol to communicate with the backcountry community and vice versa concerning control operations and snow safety conditions within the MHM permit boundary.  Stay tuned for more on this topic in the coming months.

-- Matt

# April 4, 2008 7:21 PM

Mike said:

Will this signifigant cost mean an increase in ticket or pass prices?

Matt's reply:

Mike:  There will be an increase in ticket and pass prices next season.  That increase is not, however, directly related to this project alone.  Look for more information on pricing for next season during the month of August.

Thanks for your question,

 -- Matt.

# April 4, 2008 9:36 PM

Backcountry Skier said:

Hi:

Unlike many other mountains, Mt. Hood Meadows sits directly below a popular climbing route on Mt. Hood. Therefore, any avalanch control measures should ensure for the safety of those using the wilderness area.

For many years now I have climbed the faces above Mt. Hood Meadows, Wyeast, Newton Clark, and Black Spider - typically during the winter and early spring.  To approach such routes, in the winter, I have approached from Timberline Lodge, camps on the Palmer Glacier, and from Cooper's Spur.  I have not approached from Mount Hood Meadows personally, although I believe some do.  Accordingly, I leave early in the morning, and cross near the top of the ski boundary region.  Surely, on most occassions I am within 100 feet of the boundary, or so, depending on the destination.  

I am SERIOUSLY concerned of what effect the blasting of a shell within a rope length below my path will have on my safety in the wilderness zone.  If the snow pack is marginal, such as those time that the howitzer  will be used, then I could be crossing near the boundary and be greeted by a howitzer blast a mere rope length below me.  Unless there is clear visibility and climbers are using head lamps, there is no way for the operators of the howitzer to know climbers are in the area and account for their safety.  If the shell is but a couple hundred feet off target the climbers could get hit by the shell, or otherwise if the climbers are but a couple hundred feet lower than the boundary (which is unmarked) the climbers could get hit by the shell.  In any event, a large shell blast will likely cause the slopes to avalanche beyond the ski boundary, and thus in some cases cause the climbers to be injured.

It was but a few years ago, that a group of Mazama's climbing on West Crater Rim, caused a lip to break loose in an avalanche.  This resulted in injury to several climbers and killed one climber.  This breaking loose of a lip is minor in comparison to the results of a large howitzer blast.  The West Crater Rim is typically considered a relatively safe route up the mountain.  

So unlike Mammoth or other ski resorts where there is unlikely to be climbers on the faces above the blast zone, Mt. Hood is a unique situation where climbers have for decades frequently climbed the slopes in the wilderness zone above the ski area.  

I would like the impact study to specifically address the cross boundary effects of any such blast.  Also, I would like to see studies done to ensure that the distance from the blast zone is safe to ensure no cross boundary effects occur.  Otherwise, I am afraid that sometime in the next few years that Mt. Hood Meadows will be attempting to clear away snow and in the process kill or seriously injure a climber who is in the wilderness zone.  

Also, any such impact study should also address climbers approaching from Mt. Hood Meadows (a sign or two along Heather Canyon may suffice), Timberline Lodge (a sign there at the climbers station), a day or two advance warning for those camped up on the palmer glacier before the climb, those approaching from Cloud Cap, those approaching from Coopers Spur, and those approaching from Tilly Jane Hut (which I will approach from within two weeks from now).  

If there are chances for cross boundary avalanche effects, I believe that Mt. Hood Meadows should warn climbers of the potential from all known approaches.  Primarily, I am concerned for my safety and that of other climbers from unknown and uncertain howitzer blasts.

I would note that I was recently on Snoqualimie Mountain and a control blast occurred across the valley.  The result was a small avalanche that I barely got out of the way of.  There was no warning and it was quite scary.  

Best

Backcountry Skier

Matt's reply:

Backcountry Skier:  Wow, thanks for the excellent post!  These are exactly the type of comments, concerns and input we are looking for.  As mentioned in the blog, we are still gathering research and input, while along with additional input from the USFS is helping to guide our planning process for this project.  Let me respond to each of your fine points with our current thinking and addtional efforts.

First, just to keep things in perspective, the howitzer represents simply a change in delivery method from the same methods we have been using in upper HC for many years.  Second, your observation that Mt. Hood is " . . . unique situation where climbers have for decades frequently climbed the slopes in the wilderness zone above the ski area." is quite true.  I did this in the '70's and 80's with some buddies and it was always an awesome experience for us.  Third (really should first) is MHM's primary concern for the safety of our guests, employees and alpine enthusiasts recreating near the MHM permit boundary.  The first goal of this project is to help improve safety.

Now let's get into the details.  Your comments about cross boundary impacts are valid, and not exclusively from the backcountry enthusiasts' perspective.  We have experienced slides, both large and small, in upper HC set off by folks recreating on Wy'east above HC.  This is a valid concern for MHM and our guests.  The reality is, this has been a concern for us for sometime, mitigated primarily by the fact that typically only to perform AC work in upper HC on good visibility days when climbers, etc. can see and hear MHM Patrol and vice versa.  We have been carefully studying the proposed target zones and their proximity to the MHM permit boundary.  This study is particularly relevant during low visibility conditions.  While the concussion blast is similar to the hand charges we have been using for years, the howitzer is far more accurate than any other device available, particularly for the unique terrain and conditions in upper HC, but that is only meaningful if climbers and alpine enthusiasts recreating near the MHM boundary have ready access to avalanche control operations that may be occurring within the MHM permit boundary. 

We are working on a 200' foot buffer concept on both sides of the MHM permit boundary.  This would mean that control operations would not occur within 200' INSIDE the MHM permit boundary.  Concurrently, should alpine recreation enthusiasts need to travel near the MHM permit boundary during the 3 1/2 hours of scheduled AC operations, we would encourage them to stay a minimum of 200' above the MHM permit boundary.  Of course, it would also be prudent for those folks to contact the new MHM Patrol phone (see communications comments below) to alert MHM Patrol of the possibility they will be near the MHM permit boundary during AC operations.  Proactive communications and thoughtful cooperation have always been an important and integral part of the spirit of successful mountaineering, and this proposal would certainly be no exception!

Avalanche control targets within 200' of the MHM permit boundary would be established and maintained by MHM Patrol and USFS, along with detailed results logging to help ensure that we are consistently hitting what we are targetting and achieving the intended results.  On days when avalanche control operations are underway, such operations will only occur between approximately 5:00AM and 8:30AM.  This brings us to the significant communications efforts that are under design right now.  These efforts will likely include web postings (complete with maps and elevations), a 24/7 phone number with AC work updates and scheduled activities, and in boundary snow safety updates from MHM Patrol.  In addtion, signage at the MHM boundaries, as well as postings at MHM lodges and lower PHQ will be designed to provide current AC updates.  We will have more details on this aspect of the project later this summer and, as always, your input and ideas are most welcome.  The concept of making information readily available to alpine recreation enthusiasts who may be considering recreating near the MHM permit boundary of pending AC work within the MHM permit boundary is a critical priority.

I have forwarded your post on to our partners within the USFS to give them an opportunity for further comment on your fine post.

-- Matt.

 

# April 4, 2008 11:09 PM

I love pow said:

Thanks for the post!!  Its nice to see that all the posts are positive for once.

Matt's reply:

pow:  Well you know it's just the nature of blogging that not all topics can realistically generate all positive comments.  The input, positive, negative, humorous, whatever, is very helpful and helps guide our decision making and investment priorities.

Thanks for the support.

--  Matt

# April 5, 2008 1:55 PM

Brian Strait said:

Matt

Although we haven't met as yet, kudos to you for the blog of information regarding your quest for artillery. A great post indeed. Having run that gauntlet only a couple years ago, I can sincerely appreciate what you and the MHM crew are up against. Know that myself, and my crew at LVSSR, are ready willing and able to assist however, wherever, and whenever we can in order to see you get the tool that you (like me) probably should have had long ago.

Feel free to whistle up if we can help in any way.

Brian Strait

GM- Las Vegas Ski & Snowboard Resort

P.S. Please remind Tom Spangler he stills owes me a tank of Harley gas. I may have to ride up there this summer to collect... ;-)

Matt's reply:

Brian: Thank you for the post. It provides some insight into the "network" of artillery users - primarily other ski areas and highway departments - that are part of this program. Jackson Hole is a part of this program and our new General Manager Tom Spangler (formerly COO of Jackson Hole) is very familiar with the operation. I will pass this on to Tom - sounds like you're getting the better end of the deal considering the cost of a gallon gas nowadays.

--Matt

# April 5, 2008 8:00 PM

John said:

Any snow safety expert would readily advocate for avoidance over all other means of AC.  Let's not forget that MHM's efforts for more effective AC is all for the bottom line.  Safe, satisfied, and happy customers and employees = better bottom line.  

It truly is admirable that MHM is putting safety first but:

Will the heavy-handed Howitzer be safe for all users (for example, BC visitors in Newton Creek Canyon, many of whom are well on their way up Pea Gravel Ridge at first light)?

Is a Howitzer appropriate so close to the Mt Hood Wilderness boundary (they *are* loud and they're mounted in a way that the noise broadcasts far and wide)?

I'm disappointed that Mr Larsen sees the Howitzer need only through the lens of corporate MHM.

Matt's reply:

John:  Thanks for your post.  If safe, satisfied, and happy customers and employees leads to a better bottom line, well that would be a nice benefit in addition to having safe, satisfied, and happy customers and employees!

This proposed program would also include an expanded public awareness and communications plan throughout our permit area, including the boundaries.  We believe that any potential threat or risk to backcountry enthusiasts would not be any greater with a howitzer than it is now.  I am sure that you are aware that alpine resort skiers and riders pay for chairlift rides and to have safe terrain to play on, not avoid terrain as backcountry enthusiasts may need to do for safety.

The concussion noise from the howitzer will essentially be the same as it has been from the large hand charges that we have been using for many years.  If one ventures into the wilderness at the right time, they might hear explosions coming from non-wilderness much like they see and hear jet planes overhead.  I am sure that if you are in the Mt. Hood Wilderness near Paradise Park, you can hear the enginge brakes of trucks going down Laurel Hill grade on Highway 26.

-- Matt.  

# April 6, 2008 5:31 AM

Snowolf said:

Wow! Thanks for taking the time and effort to prepare and share all this information with everyone. Very few resorts include the clientel in such a way. Yet another reason that makes MHM "Best in the West"

As an avid backcountry snowboarder and holder of a level 1 avalanche certification, I can apreciate the challenges that you face in balancing safety with access to this great terrain. I think this another great step in the right direction and I look forward to more open days in Heather\Clark Canyons as well as possible changes in our gate policies to access out of bounds areas in the adjacent National Forest territory.

One question; Will this gun allow you to stabilize and control the snowpack higher up on Wy`East face above Superbowl to reduce the threat from higher up?

Matt's reply:

Snowolf:  Thanks for your post and your support.  Our targetting will remain within the MHM permit boundary.  Accordingly, we will not be targetting any terrain that is above the buffer that will be located 200' below our permit boundary.

Look for our post this coming summer concerning updated information about our boundary policy.

-- Matt

# April 6, 2008 6:53 AM

Sky said:

Stellar article.  Really well documented, described, informative and all but impossible not to understand.  Thank you for your dedication to safety at Meadows.  It truly is a unique mountain for snow safety.  What are Meadows' thoughts on skier safety in Private Reserve.

Sky

# April 6, 2008 8:40 AM

Fred Noble said:

Thanks Matt,

Your doing a geat job of keeping the public informed.

I think this kind of information should be posted IN THE LODGE in a big glass enclosed board.

I heard a lot of grumbling from the ill informed this season. I dug several pits during the storm cycles and can tell you that this is the worst year I have ever seen for weak layers in the snow pack.

In the heli-ski business we would rather have our clients angry at us for not taking them down a suspect slope than to have the clients family angry at us for bringing their loved one's out in a body bag.

The big gun will certainly make life easier for the ski patrol. My compliments to them for the fantastic job they did this season.

I am not sure if it is economically feasible but we have found great success dropping charges from a 206 helicopter. We have over 1000 square miles of ski terrain and it is the only way can get to the remote areas.

I am sure you are talking to all the experts in the avalanche field but if you need more contacts let me know.

Fred Noble

CMH Heli-Skiing

Matt's reply:

Fred: Thank you for your comments and insight. I appreciate and commend you for your approach to safety.  Performing AC work on Mt. Hood, even with a real powerful and maneuverable helicopter is dicey.  On a typical winter day during a snow cycle, or perhapes even just following one, funky winds, windshear, downdraft, and tough ground visibility make this exceptionally challenging for even the most experienced pilot and capable machine.  Remember a few years ago when the Blackhawk went down on Hood attempting a rescue on a bluebird day?  The pilot reported that windshear came out of nowhere while he was attempting to hover.  Even the Lifeflight pilots have reported tough conditions on certain days around the MHM base area!  It appears that, after evaluating all other credible alternatives, the howitzer is the safest and most reliable tool for the job we need to do within the unique MHM permit area.

Thanks for your continued support Fred.  Your knowledge, experience and level-headed thinking are always refreshing!

-- Matt.

# April 6, 2008 3:03 PM

Chris said:

I guess somebody has to be first so I will say this: This sounds like a lot of PR with lots of opportunities to slide out from all of this and blame it on somebody else. You are not effectively doing control work with the current tools you have to even be asking for a new method. I was a pro patroller for 10 years doing avi control 8 of those years at another area in the PNW. We did not use any such cannon because of the increased danger and lack of ability to accurately gage the results (is the slope now stable because of the shot?). I would imagine you will still need to send people out to the area to see if another shot is needed. Also what kind of "cost savings" are you willing to make and what will be the effect on safety of the mountain (climbers, backcountry skiers, etc)

I really call into question your avi program after last monday 3/31 when no major changes had occurred in the back country (no new snow, no transport, no major change in snow level lots of skier compaction the day before) the gates should have been open first thing but they were not. Then when Cascade finally got open I find 6 or 7 patrol folks sitting in the sun at the top of the chair. Why was the gate closed? Why were these folks not doing something about getting the gate open? What was the reason for closing the gate in the first place? Then when it did open the sign said Accordion OPEN only to get there and see the sign say closed. All of these impact the respect your rope line will get.

One last issue is that you really need to address your hard closure boundary. As an earlier post said you have the most enforced boundary in possibly the whole nation with out any respect for skier ability this really needs to change. Even if you did a Mt Baker style gate with prove your skills before you go.

P.S. I have done control work at Snowbird MHM is not as dangerous to the degree Snowbird is. You have to hang yourself out before you even drop your first charge at Snowbird. MHM has a Heather Ridge that gives ample security for doing your control work not to mention easy access for patrol.

Matt's reply:

Chris:  Thanks for your post.  Sorry for the tardy reply, but I wanted to get more detailed input from our AC Team. Before I get into to their comments, I need to tell you directly that our proposed updated avalanche control project is quite far from a PR stunt.  Next, I need to to tell you that I, along with our our AC Team, do not agree with your comments.

So let me summarize our team's thoughts regarding your comments and observations.  First off, we are curious to learn where you did your "avi control" for those eight years in the PNW?  As you hopefully read and saw in our blog, Heather Canyon is a different little area from most the resorts around the PNW and Utah.  Next, the howitzer alone will not fully stabilize the slopes in HC.  This would be another tool used, in addition to those already being used, to improve safety, effectiveness and timeliness.  When weather conditions permit, we will continue to test for slope stablity after control work has been performed using the same means and methods we have been using for many years. We don't understand your question about "cost savings".  If you have experience with a weapons program for AC, you know that cost savings is not a part of that program.  Improved safety, efficiency, effectiveness and timeliness are, however, included.  Regarding backcountry users, as discussed in other responses to this blog, we will be continually improving our communications means and methods with the many users of this great mountain.  Please keep in mind that our proposal includes only a change in the delivery system we have been using for many years and not the scope of the work.

So now let's talk about the situation on March 31, 2008.  We received 1" of snow that morning and winds were moderate to gusty.  Cascade Express loaded first chair at 9:05AM.  HC opened to the public at 10:03AM from A-Zone on down.  The Accordion side opened at 10:39, and the Accordion AC route was completed.  Significant wind transport and drifting created additional work in this particular area.  As can happen, as the sun came up the additional work lead to the discovery of some additional threats which were also addressed, but took some extra time. Sounds like you arrived at Accordion just as MHM Patrol was finishing this additional control work.  We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you.

As discussed in other responses to this blog, the MHM boundary policy is under review.  Look for a blog on this topic later this coming summer.

You are indeed a lucky man to have done control work at Snowbird.  Your old boss there might shed some light for you regarding performing this work on large, exposed, convex slopes.  He has been a great help to MHM and the USFS in researching various AC techniques for HC, and has been a big help in improving our entire AC program at MHM.

Regarding your comments about Heather Ridge, that is not the only area where AC work is required.  Check out the photos of the Basalt areas and Super Bowl on the blog.

Finally, given your professional background, our AC Team Manager would welcome the opportunity to dialogue with you personnally.

Thanks again for your post.

-- Matt

# April 6, 2008 4:57 PM

Ben said:

Bring on the Howi!  right on Meadows!  Keep moving in this new/good direction.

++++++vibes++++++

Matt's reply:

Ben: vibes back atcha. Onward!

--Matt

# April 6, 2008 5:11 PM

Dan from LI,NY said:

im all for seeing that put into effect. great EFFICIENT way of going about it, what kind of "round" does it fire? an actual military 105mm howitzer round?

Matt's reply:

Dan:  Yes.

-- Matt

# April 6, 2008 7:38 PM

Nick said:

Matt-

Over my 20 years skiing in the PNW, my first expeirence with the "howie" was at Alpental.  It was very effective and when we moved down here, I was at a loss for words when I heard that no one here has even tried it.  It's a great tool.  Curious, where would said weapon be placed?

Matt's reply:

Nick: Thanks for the post. The proposed location is approximately 600' down from the top of the Star lift on Shooting Star Ridge.  .

--Matt

# April 6, 2008 9:56 PM

Toby said:

This is great information, but this is spring (even if it doesnt seem like it), and what is the time line for opening Cascade SuperPark?

Matt's reply:

Toby: The Cascade Park construction will begin this week as soon as the weather allows us to build it.

--Matt

# April 6, 2008 10:18 PM

Brooklyn Boarder said:

Great Idea, hopefully this will lead to better and safer powder days in the HC. It's good to see that MHM is doing its best to satisfy the needs of its staff and guests...thanks!

Matt's reply:

Brooklyn: Thank you for the post.

--Matt

# April 7, 2008 11:31 AM

Evan said:

This is good news that will become great news when it's official.

I have a question about access to upper heather - assuming the howitzer is installed, is it possible for upper to be open even if cascade is not running? maybe run a groomer up the ridge to facilitate a boot-pack line? or install a tiny surface rope-tow or T-bar? The top of Blackcomb, for instance, is a great example of how a small surface lift can increase the reliability of access to areas with frequent wind and rime ice issues.

Thanks.

Matt's reply:

Evan: Thanks for the post. We'd need to look into that. There are many variables as to why Cascade may not be open - most of them would most likely keep the canyon closed. But if the reason Cascade was closed was solely due to the lift (deicing), perhaps there would be a scenario that AC work in the canyon would be completed first and hikers would be allowed to access the upper reaches of Heather prior to Cascade operating. We'll see.

--Matt

# April 8, 2008 9:55 AM

joe rock said:

Great news! Hope we can have this up and bombing next season.  If only there was a quicker way to get back to A-zone. Any Possibility of a lift from top of shooting star to a-zone? thanks for the forum and keep on keepin on.

Matt's reply:

Joe:  Thanks for your continued support.  We are working closely with USFS inan effort to achieve this project for next season.

Regarding the lift from Shooting Star to A-Zone, that is one that will require a great deal of study, not to mention studies of other alternatives!

-- Matt

 

# April 8, 2008 1:30 PM

joe rock said:

One other Question I forget to ask is where is the S&R area at?

Matt's reply:

joe: S&R cliffs is located between the bottom of the Shooting Star lift and the Private Reserve.

--Matt

# April 8, 2008 1:39 PM

Spring Rider said:

What's up with the parks on Herm. They aren't showing on the website anymore. You aren't getting rid of those are you. Just rose city park? that's no bueno for spring skiing buddy. how bout a little info.

Matt's reply:

Spring Rider: The HRM parks have been decomissioned and we are focusing our efforts on the Cascade Park, Rose City Park, Shipyard, the Zoo and the Superpipe.

--Matt

# April 9, 2008 11:06 AM

Shaun White said:

Matt-

Thanks for the blog.  This sounds like it will definately help.  It should be pretty sick.  So my real reason for checking in is are you guys shutting down park place and forest park for the rest of the year or just rebuilding?  I noticed they aren't on the conditions page anymore.

Matt's reply:

Shaun: See the response to Spring Rider above.

--Matt

# April 9, 2008 11:12 AM

Paul said:

Good to hear about this. I grew up boarding and skiing at Alyeska in Alaska and they were always blasting away to control the slopes on Max's and elsewhere. The terrain challenges there are similar to Heather Canyon - lots of terrain traps and tons of snow to fill 'em quick. The State Highway Department also used them and it was very effective keeping some very exposed road open. Seems like a good proposal. Nothing like eating pancakes as the howitzers go off to know the day is going to be epic!

Matt's reply:

Paul: Thanks for the comments. As you mention the use of artillery has been used effectively for AC work for many years at other locations.

--Matt

# April 9, 2008 4:06 PM

Kevin said:

Thanks for the great post.  It was worth the wait.  Hope prices don't go up too much.  There's a lot of students out there (like me) who will venture elsewhere.

P.S. please let us know if there's any public comment period on this plan.

Matt's reply:

Kevin:  Thanks for your support.  USFS has indicated they intend to approve this project under a Categorical Exclusion.  If you wish to provide input on this project, this blog is a great place to start!

-- Matt.

# April 9, 2008 9:38 PM

EAK Haynes said:

In your response to mike. You mentioned that there would be a ticket and pass cost increase, but not do to the new gun. What other improvements can a pass holder expect to see  with this increase?

Matt's reply:

EAK Haynes: We'll address the improvements that we're making for next season in an upcoming blog. Keep in mind that our special 4 x 4 price $400 is the same as when this was introduced five years ago and that we announced prior to this season that the price would be increasing. But I'm confident that our pass holders will find any increase in pricing to be reasonable.

--Matt

# April 10, 2008 8:02 AM

Waiting for a Park said:

I was starting to see some big piles of snow on Cascade when i was riding at meadows on tuesday... Is this an indicator of parks soon to come up there? Please tell me it is so!

Matt's reply:

Waiting: The park is under construction, but won't be ready to ride for the weekend. It's a lot of snow to move and our crews really couldn't get on it until Wednesday.

--Matt

# April 10, 2008 9:51 AM

Powder Hound said:

Matt, once again great write up.  I was wondering if the weather holds true for this weekend will you be running the cat up to the top of Super Bowl?

Matt's reply:

PH:  Thanks for the question.  MHM Grooming Crew has done a superb job of creating a nice road for hiking above Cascade.  The turnaround at the top is a little dicey for manuevering our special cat used for that terrain.  Drifts and snow stability further compromise this manuever.  The Crew has been working on this, but at the end of the day, if they are not comfortable running the machince up this road due to the turnaround, then we will follow their lead and maintain this route for hiking -- particularly for the blue bird conditions we have right now. 

I'll see you their today!

-- Matt.

# April 10, 2008 2:22 PM

JP Walker said:

Matt,

I'm not really feeling you guys on this park situtation.  You guys are squeezing 1000 little rippers into a tiny park (Rose City) this weekend while trying to build the superparke on Cascade.  We all saw the forecast for the week and knew it would be crappy weather until fri/sat.  If the Cascade park doesn't get finished by tomorrow you are going to have some seriously mad shreds on your hands.  With 200 inches of snow you guys should have left Park Place alone until the weather shows a bit more consistency.  Next weeks weather looks pretty scketch to and now we only have 4 jumps to hit....come on son!

Matt's reply:

JP: Jason tells me we should have three jumps built on Cascade by Friday, and possibly a fourth added for Saturday. It is our intent to have Cascade Park open this weekend - which will be great for everyone!

--Matt

# April 10, 2008 4:20 PM

Waiting for Parks said:

Is cascade park up and running for the weekend? i see no indicator of it on the website....

Matt's reply:

Waiting: 3 jumps have been constructed. We are dialing in the jumps right now and looking to add another jump. We are not certain whether the park will be ready Saturday, although we are working hard to get it open as soon as possible.

--Matt

# April 11, 2008 9:13 AM

Powder Hound said:

Matt, Matt, Matt.........Nice cat road up to Superbowl to bad the ski patrol won't let anyone climb it???  Thanks for trying but as for now I can't possibly understand why Superbowl couldn't be opened Sunday; maybe it was too nice.  The next reason for the upper part not to be open will be the cat track is too muddy........

Matt's reply:

Hound:  The facts are these:  Thermal warming was significant this past weekend, beginning Friday through Sunday, and particularly Saturday through Saturday night and on into early Sunday AM.  The bright sun and warm temps created some very unstable snow conditions conditions in Upper HC, including possible large slab releases.  Patrol was on it early in the AM, dug pits everywhere.  These are the types of conditions that no amount of hand charges, morter rounds and the like will resolve to create safer conditions.

Sorry to disapoint you, but I am glad that you are alive to complain about the situation.

-- Matt.

# April 14, 2008 9:39 AM

Ex Lift Op Mike Bartlett said:

Matt, Why do you keep ignoring my questions and omitting my posts?

Matt's reply:

Mike:  Not quite sure what's going on.  I have responded to each of your posts on this most recent blog, as well as all other prior responses that you have taken the time to write in.

If we missed one, re-send it.  Might have had a technical problem, although those are thankfully quite rare!

-- Matt.

# April 15, 2008 9:37 AM

Ex Lift Op Mike Bartlett said:

One last try then Matt,

I would like to ski HC more often and feel safer about it, and I applaud MHM for improving their AC control.

Are the shells to be used in HC avie control standard issue HE 105mm dU? Is there another option insted of using depleted Uranium projectiles?

This will be the third or fourth attempt to ask you this question. I'm dubtful there was 3-4 other technical problems;)

Matt's reply:

Mike:  You are quite right, there were no technical problems.  My responses to both of your April 4, 2008 posts were published on April 9, 2008 and have been attached to the blog ever since.

The approved shells for the howtizer are specified by the US Army.  The are not made of, nor do they contain, depleted uranium.

Peace.

-- Matt.

 

# April 16, 2008 7:33 AM

JCB said:

Mt.Hood has been my hill since I could walk. I've spent my winters sliding down it's slopes and summers exploring everything else she has to offer. Even still, only in the past year, have I begun to understand the role MHM ski patrol plays in avalanche control.

I've seen the pictures of 8' slides filling the canyon to the heather lift and considered myself intelligent for not going in while it was closed. However, at the same time I was saying "why doesn't that ski-patrol do something!". Thank you for all the time you put into educating people like myself, who have an all too-selfish perspective of OUR hill.  The only advice I would add is that I wouldn't feel the way I do if it hadn't been for these blogs;  and not everyone reads them. I don't have a lot of ideas on how to get the message out, but the more people who are informed, the more you'll have standing behind you when it comes to issues like getting the big gun.

PS. The parks have been Fantastic these past few weeks. Muchas gracias!

Matt's reply:

JCB:  Thanks for your support. I will pass your kind words on to our well deserving Patrol and Parks departments.

-- Matt.

# April 16, 2008 9:18 AM

Carson Wiser said:

I am all for more backcountry riding, and earlier Heather canyon starts. But I hate to see Meadows start slacking on their parks, which Seems to have happened. On days when the weather is 60 degrees plus, you need to have people salting the park and pipe. You also need to make a park that doesn't just have jumps or just rails. Rather, make one that flows with both. If meadows wants to be a destination resort it needs to get it together. I hate to say it but park place is not steep enough for the amount of jumps you have in it. I know meadows has thousands of dollars worth of rails sitting in storage, why don't you put them in places that are flatter instead of trying to cram small 15 ft tables in? I don't know if this is true, but i heard that Matt Drake is not a big fan of snowboarders and is running meadows into the ground. Poor management can lead to bankrupcy as it did in Tamarack Idaho where construction has been halted. Also, if meadows wants to be a destination resort they will need to expand/ build a new lodge. The current one is small and crammed and not very inviting. Is the Howlitzer really worth the money?

Matt's reply:

Carson: Thanks for your advice but I can assure you that our crew is well aware of the appropriate amount of salt to apply on warm days (of which we've really had only two this whole season).

Regarding snowboarders, I wouldn't be in this business if I didn't respect and appreciate all of our mountain users, regardless of what they wear on their feet - you heard wrong. We continue to make improvements to Meadows which will benefit all of our guests.

I'm sorry that Park Place doesn't set up for your personal style, but we've received great feedback from riders about the park. The feedback is appreciated and we will consider it as we set up other parks. That is the nature of freestyle - we're not locked into just one way of doing things.

Regarding your management comments I'll let our record speak for itself. It's our 40th anniversary season and we have become the preeminant resort on Mt. Hood and in Oregon. We have been successful largely by listening to our guests and staff members to make good decisions. This blog has been a very useful tool to gain that feedback - both positive and negative. We take that valuable information and work it into the decision making process. So I thank you for expressing your feelings on these topics.

Finally, yes the Howitzer is worth it.

--Matt

# April 16, 2008 11:31 AM

Paul C said:

Sorry to post OT, but I was looking at the last topic with your update for the season's total snowfall record. It looks like we have had quite a bit since then. Have we broken 700" for the year yet?

Matt's reply: Yes - we're right around 700" since November 19 but we had received 30 inches of snow prior to that date so we're heading towards 750 inches!

--Matt

# April 16, 2008 4:11 PM

snow jumper said:

Saw the big jumps being put together last weekend. Was a bit disappointed to see it wasn't finished and not even being worked on while I was there sunday. I know you can run snowcats during operational hours. What gives?

Last year there were several parks on Cascade. Small, med and Larger. Its always great to have some non neck breaking jumps that you can just hit fast and not worry about killing yourself. Could you make some smaller jumps for us less extreme folks?

Thanks

Matt's reply:

snow jumper: Thanks for the post. Running cats during normal public hours is the exception. I understand your disappointment about not having Cascade built - we're still going to work on it once we get through the current storm which has interrupted our efforts up there. If we can get it built I think you're going to like the features - the emphasis will be on fun.

--Matt

# April 17, 2008 11:58 AM

Ex Lift Op Mike Bartlett said:

u lie on both accounts

Matt's reply:

Mike:  Not quite sure where you are going here?

-- Matt.

# April 17, 2008 4:06 PM

Ex Lift Op Mike Bartlett said:

i had 2 posts censored, at least dave had the balls to be honest

u need to look into the 105mm ammo, educate yourself

Matt's reply:

Mike:  Please see me other responses to your posts.  Again, if I have missed one, the re-send.  We do not edit posts, only respond to them.

-- Matt.

# April 17, 2008 4:16 PM

Ex Lift Op Mike Bartlett said:

i did just see one mfg that uses steel projectiles insted of dU, dU is lead, when uranium loses it radiation it decays to lead

i sure hope thats what u use, i guess we had 2 technical issues with my posts not getting to u

Matt's reply:

Ex Lift Op Mike:  Steel shells are the Army specification for this use.  As mentioned in my last response to you, I have posted and responded to each post received from you.  If I have missed one, then please re-send it and I will respond.

Thanks for your passion.

-- Matt.

# April 17, 2008 4:55 PM

Park Rider said:

What is going on with Cascade Park, this is absolutely inexcusable. After saying that the park would hopefully be up two weekends ago, there is still no indicator of it opening. I understand that you have made changes in Rose City that may have been time consuming, it is just poor management that you don't have Cascade open a week or more ago.

Matt's reply:

Park Rider: We've been building it when the weather allows - unfortunately this week of winter has prevented us from being able to do any building (0 visibility). We'll continue to work on it when the weather allows.

--Matt

# April 17, 2008 9:37 PM

nice work... said:

dude nice work on the parks. tore out the herm parks two weeks ago and still no mention of anything else going up. these crazy ten foot pow days killing you on building up parks or you just giving up on that stuff for the season? looks like it's another weekend of rolling five jumps and one park with one hundred kids that regardless of ability are all crammed into the same park. sounds fun and safe....

Matt's reply:

nice work: The forecast is calling for anywhere between 10 and 20 inches of snow in the next 36 hours, so I'm thinking most everyone will want to hit the powder. We will focus on Rose City and the Superpipe for this weekend, and as the weather allows we'll attempt to build Cascade Park again.

--Matt

# April 18, 2008 8:05 AM

Ex Lift Op Mike Bartlett said:

I apolagize for being rude. When I first started looking into the Howitzer ammunition shortly after your post, all the army spec suppliers I found used HE 105mm dU ammo. Depleted Uranium (for the projectiles) is the most common ammo used by the army. If steel projectiles are used, which I hope they are, then the oppisition should be minimal.  I didn't really expect you to post my first 2 rants, again I'm sorry for going off. I did ask you these questions at least twice, they should have been in the first 10-20 posts if they made it to you. It seemed hypocritical to throw lead on Mt Hood when you're celebrating Earth Day and doing Vegitate.

Matt's reply:

Mike:  No worries.  Hope you are satisfied with my prior responses.  Just to make certain I am communicating effectively, ammo for the howitzer (if approved) would be steel shells.  This is the same ammo used at resorts such as Snowbird, Jackson Hole, Telluride and many others in North America.

Peace.

-- Matt.

# April 18, 2008 9:57 AM

What? said:

Hey Matt,  just wondering why HRM park has been deleted? There is still so much snow up there, and that is your best park, I know you guys want to focus on cascade park now that spring is getting closer, but I guess that is not even open yet? Will that be open for this weekend? And will there be a spring pipe up there as well?  Just always seems like a lot of talk going on about parks all season, and not much actually happening.....

Matt's reply:

What? We decommissioned Park Place two weeks ago when the HRM went to weekend operations. We started to build Cascade Park and then the weather intervened. So we have been focusing our efforts on Rose City and the superpipe. With the winter conditions there has been no need to build an upper pipe - the Superpipe is in excellent condition and we have enough snow to be able to continue to maintain it.

--Matt

# April 18, 2008 11:57 AM

Bart Taylor said:

Matt-

Give your park crew kudos, it looks like they have managed to squeeze everyone that wants to ride park into the little setup under Easy Rider for the second consecutive weekend.  I wonder how long I'll have to wait in line at the top of Rose City Park to hit 2 jumps.....

Like my boy Cru Jones said last week you never should have rolled over the other couple parks before you built up Cascade.

Matt's reply:

Bart: There's four tables a step up and three rails in Rose City, along with thirteen rails in Shipyard. And the Superpipe is open. The Parks Crew has been hard at work HAND GROOMING in a driving snow storm. You need to be reminded of the outstanding job our Parks Dept. and Grooming Dept’s have done this year managing over 730” of snowfall – often arriving with high winds! There are those that would like to see park features on every trail. But there is a cost associated with building and maintaining these features -- and not just an economic cost, but an opportunity cost asociated with taking terrain away from a wide variety of other users.

So yes it would be nice to continue to operate Park Place and other terrain features - but this late in the season we need to make choices. Two weeks ago we chose to move our efforts towards the construction of the Cascade Park. Under normal weather conditions we would have that park constructed and you'd be loving it. But this return to winter has slowed us down in achieving our goal of moving forward with that plan. Now we have focused our efforts on Rose City, Shipyard and the Superpipe, We continue to work on the construction of Cascade Park thoughout this spring weather system. We'll getter done as quickly as we can, and, as I mentioned above, you'll be loving it.

Thanks for the post.

--Matt

# April 18, 2008 4:24 PM

Brad . said:

I keep reading the Blog, over and over, and I still can't find anything about parks?  Why are so many posts  about parks?  

Anyway, maybe if you wrote a Parks Blog, these bored individuals would have a place to comment.

Keep up the good work.  Glad to hear that Meadows' upper management is supporting its people so well.

Brad

P.S.  Not a big surprise that Mike Bartlett is an "ex" lift operator.  Good work dropping that guy from the team.  

Matt's reply:

Brad: Thanks for the post. We have been liberal in posting the off topic parks comments under the avalanche control topic. But we do want to communicate with our guests, particularly those that are passionate about it.

I appreciate your kind comments and will pass them on to our staff.

--Matt

# April 18, 2008 11:04 PM

lifdude said:

This is in response to Katies post...Yeah...what Matt said!!!

lifdude:

Matt's reply: Onward!

--Matt

# April 19, 2008 7:57 PM

Kevin said:

Thanks for having cascade and heather open yesterday (saturday).  that was a nice spring treat!

P.S. for what it's worth, I couldn't care less about the parks.  i'm just happy when the terrain is open.

Thanks

Matt's reply:

Kevin: Thanks for the post. A lot of hard work go into opening both Cascade and Heather so quickly considering the weather we have been receiving. Hopefully spring will give us some more great days!

--Matt

# April 20, 2008 9:07 AM

Ex Lift Op Mike Bartlett said:

Now my first post shows up, and I see why, my condolences. I assumed you were editing my posts since my post on the book "Snow Sense" already made it in. With your nicely detailed answer I can see that you wanted to take more time, and I wish I had before ranting.

Are we ever gonna get spring skiing and corn snow, damn! I love fresh pow, but freshly baked corn is a close second. Pray for sun for the Kona Pond Skim! And if ya wanna park, head to the West Hills, there's a big one up by the zoo.

Matt's reply:

Mike: Ride on -- we'll see you at the Pond Skim.  Looks like more snow this week, then a shot at a  bluebird day for the Skim.  And so it goes this epic season at Mt. Hood Meadows!

Thanks for the post.

-- Matt.

# April 21, 2008 4:20 PM

Parkly Dissapointed said:

I think my major "parks" issue is that we're all tired of the excuses.  Give it a break, it got old a long time ago.  All you have to do is take a tour of Timberline to see the excuses don't truly hold water.  

It's not about how hard the parks crews are working, of course they work hard.  It's about the management and direction of their efforts that's lacking, and sorely.  It starts at the top, not the bottom.

There isn't a single jump setup currently (and very few all season) that could really be termed an beginner to intermediate.  I ride of with a fairly experienced group of riders, but certainly not park pros, and the best of them struggle to clear the table tops, if they can at all.

I myself am just getting comfortable with jumping there year, but have largely been completely unable to progress with my straight jumps, due to the size of the ones that have been built.  I'm just not comfortable risking a blown-out knee to try to clear the table top, so I've mostly had to stick to the hips and such.

It would be really nice if the parks crew was directed to build features requiring varying levels of skill and experience.  Oh wait, we kind of had that, before The Zoo was mowed down, what a month, month and a half ago?

Something is seriously wrong with the direction the parks crew is being given this year.

Such a shame, the end of the season is nearly in site (only weekends left after a few more days, and how many of those are we likely to get, 3 or 4.  Hopefully more, but there's no way to know.  There's going to be hardly any days left to even enjoy the work the parks crew is putting in on Cascade.  That is, for those few how are advanced enough to enjoy the massive jumps.

Ciao.

Matt's reply:

Parkly: Thanks for the post. We are making an effort to design our jumps for fun for a greater number of park riders, including those that aren't as advanced as the pros. Most of the comments posted here were complaining that our features have been too small this season. It sounds like we had some features that were right for you in the Zoo - we'll take note of that. We are continuing with our plans to build the Cascade Park, hopefully the weather will allow us to construct this week.

I appreciate you taking the time to share your comment. It will help us to design better parks for our guests in the future.

--Matt

# April 22, 2008 10:23 AM

Toby said:

What happened to meadows this year? Last year Park Place was set up early and maintained, with jumps almost always being correct for speed and a step style jump for the entire year. This year Park Place was not at its usual before the last half of the season.

No large jumps have been built to date! Last year the voyager park was great for riders that HRM was just a little too small for, this year the first decent sized jump will most likely be opened on April 26th, That means there will only be 10 possible days that these jumps will be open? I would even accept this timetable if these jumps were going to be over 50 feet, but according to rumors meadows will no longer build jumps over 45 feet.

Last weekend the entire speed for the right line of Rose City was un-hittable do to lack of speed, Are the current Cat drivers even personally hitting the jumps or just building them by eye?

You cannot treat park riders this way without expecting them to leave for the great deal of the Fusion Pass!

Matt's reply:

Toby: Thanks for the post - it prompted me to do some looking back at the season. Park Place opened Saturday, January 5 - please remember that we had very little snow until December 15 (HRM wasn't even opened) and then we got blasted with steady snow for six weeks. It affected our park building schedule but our crew still got Park Place open for riding. Keep in mind that this has been a record season for snow on Mt. Hood - around 750 inches so far - but the real issue was the continuous days of large accumulation. Usually we get a big dump and then some time in between to maintain the park. We were receiving so much snow that we literally were having to basically start from scratch each time after the big snowfalls.

It is interesting to read these posts. Parkly above says our jumps are too big. You say they are too small. We are trying to design features that are fun for the greatest variety of our park enthusiasts. In doing so sometimes it's difficult to make it perfect for one person. But we have been getting great public feedback on our parks and superpipe, particularly when the weather has cooperated.

As you know parks change with the weather and conditions - that's part of the challenge of building parks here on Mt. Hood. We're proud of our grooming and park maintenance crews. They are committed to designing and maintaining features and parks that our guests can enjoy. I hope you are one of the many who will continue to enjoy Paradise Parks here at Meadows.

--Matt

# April 22, 2008 7:57 PM

Dan said:

Count me as one of the silent majority who couldn't care less about parks...though they are a good tool to get Hank the Hucker off the rest of the mountain.

I respect that you need to serve all your patrons, but the amount of Goldilocks-style complaining about the parks ("This one is too big!" "This one is too small!") is ridiculous. If people really want to consistently ride park features unhampered by snowfall, they should stay in Portland and hit a skate park.

Matt's reply:

Dan: Thanks for the post.

--Matt

# April 22, 2008 9:03 PM

Skithedeep said:

Matt,

Good post.

The way I look at it is when it's storming Cascade will probably be closed & even if it was open would I want to ski upper Heather with no visibility & in most cases wind blown conditions.  The best skiing during a storm cycle in Heather is usually further down the canyon in Jacks woods where the trees are your friends.

Will the big gun get Jacks woods & lower Heather open more frequently & sooner during a storm cycle since that's more then likely the place you'll be able to access by lift?

Matt's reply:

Skithedeep: We hope that with this new remote explosives delivery device, we can get the Heather and Clark Canyon areas open faster, more often, and most importantly, in a safer manner.  That being said, each and every day of a storm cycle presents unique challenges.  There will be days when we can give everyone what they want, and there will be days that we can’t.  And lets all remember, the clearing that comes after a storm is still part of that “storm cycle”.  Sun can be as dangerous as rain or snow.

Thanks for the post!

--Matt

# April 22, 2008 10:50 PM

Please Respond Matt said:

Hi, Next week after your weekday season is over, can we ski bums ski inbounds during the week ( via leg power ) without getting blown up or covered in Avy debris. It is still going to snow for a little longer it looks like and as many backcountry options as MT Hood offers none are as Avy safe as your snow that has been skied thousands of times and Avy controlled. As in years passed we will stay out of the way of any groomers, cats or employees. If bombing on certain days maybe you could post it up somewhere or say after 10am your done or something

Thanks

Matt's reply:

The issue here is that we continue to do maintenance work with snowcats and snowmobiles throughout the permit area. We also may have areas in construction, or be working in parks disrupting the snow in areas. We want to make everyone aware that we continue to do this work, and really don't want traffic in these areas while this work is ongoing. We are closed and there is equipment on the mountain either for operations or maintenance. You should not be on the mountain and you are responsible for your safety.

There is also the issue of snow safety - we may not be performing A/C work in between weekends - or maybe we will be performing A/C work. Either way someone skiinning up Heather could be going into a dangerous area. We're not trying to deny access to those hiking, snow shoeing, or skiing through the area. We're just trying to make people aware of our issues and concerns. If we encounter people who are in areas that we have these concerns, we will alert them about the dangers and ask that they leave the area - for their own safety.

Thanks for understanding and your cooperation in this matter.

--Matt

# April 23, 2008 4:11 PM

AKborn said:

Matt, you talk about this amazingly epic season.  I think we could all agree that the season has been amazing.  I just dont understand why you feel the need to shut the resort down during the week at a time like this.  Are you not getting enough attendance or what?  Correct me if I'm wrong but I am pretty sure that the the mountain just broke 200 inches of base...again.  It just seems to me (and a lot of other people that ride MHM regularly) that it is way too early to be closing, considering the amount of snow still on the ground.  There is no doubt in my mind that you will get through the May Challenge with ease.  So why not pull some strings and keep Meadows open during the week?  At least try it until the attendance isn't high enough.  You came out with the closing date a month and a half ago, before you knew you  it was going to snow 15 more feet.  Maybe you can come up with some reasons for everyone who is wondering the same thing I am.

Thanks

Matt's reply:

AKborn: Thanks for the post. The answer is quite simple - there aren't enough skiers and snowboarders who can come midweek to justify operations. We're doing everything we can to extend our season by focusing on the two days that the greatest amount of people can come to the mountain.

--Matt

# April 24, 2008 8:05 PM

sds said:

Matt

I think your big gun for avy control has merit, but there is a bigger yearly problem that needs to be addressed by all the ski area operators at Hood than just sliding snow--sliding vehichles packed like sardines on 35 & 26 on your 'big weekends'--this avalanche of cars and trucks used by skiers all creeping and crawling up and down the mountain can often take more time sitting in the car than skiing on the hill--this is insane and it is getting worse!!!!!  I brought my grand kids up on a Feb. Sun. AM this year and everything was fine until we came to a screeching halt a little past Welches--from there it was stop and go to the top of the pass--2 and a half hours later--you'd have suspected a wreck or two--NO--just looky-loos with or without chains and too much traffic!!  You know I don't have to mention how long it took to creep back over the pass to get home!! Everyone reading this post knows just what I'm talking about--they have been there--and wonder what the road will be like when they start home--one big weekends--which way should we take to go home??  One wonders if it is worth it to fight that weekend mess again??  It really takes some of the joy out a great sport!!  It's not so much the lines at the lifts anymore--its getting to be the lines of traffic on the highway that's the most irritating thing about going skiing!!  You need a blog about this and get others input--it definitly affects the joy one gets from their ski day--its the big gun that can make or break a ski day--gridlock to and from the ski areas on the big weekends needs addressing by all the area operators.

Im no expert but my 2 cents worth is there needs to be a shuttle system frome somewhere near Welches to the pass and then to Meadows and up to TL--you pay for the shuttle at point of p/u or thru your season pass like TL did this year between SB and TL. then you charge ten bucks or so on the busy weekends to park in the main parking lots--this plus raising ticket prices a little to help keep the shuttle price down will encourage shuttle use.  A little ticket discount for shuttle users would help too!!

Matt's reply:

SDS: Thanks for the post. Earlier this season in December we devoted two blog posts to this subject. The responses helped shape a peak day parking action plan which used car pool incentives, additional shuttling and promotion of public transportation to reduce congestion. We also promote taking the alternate route - highway 35 to I-84 through Hood River on those busy days.

--Matt

# April 25, 2008 5:05 AM

Jerry said:

To whom it may concern,

I have to ask (hopefully this isn't a censored board as this is a little off topic), Why are you closing?  I know this is the typical time to close, but you have a 50ft high snow bank next to your lodge and I rode fresh snow over a foot deep yesterday with midweek crowds that have rivaled some years spring break crowds.  The bar was packed, so money's got to be flowing in.

I just don't understand why this year is coming to an end when you still haven't built a decent sized park all year, and I've only had 1 or 2 spring days.  We might never have snow like this again during our life, please acknowledge this and lets celebrate the fact that we could ride through June this year.  You certainly advertised the heck out of the mountain during the winter when it was so crowded you couldn't ride a full day without someone running into you...so why not spread that advertising budget out and do some advertising now (I think just a picture of that snow bank would get me to come if I wasn't aware there were still over 200").  Just cut operations and staff to maximize profits (you employ way too many people who just sit around), I mean you've already closed HRM (may I add long before it needed to be).

I hope someone answers these questions.

Jerry

Matt's reply:

Jerry: Much of what you are asking about has been covered in previous responses in this topic and in the May Challege Revisited post. There isn't a 50 foot high snowbank next to the lodge but yes we do have a lot of snow still. I'm hoping your comments will rev up those reading it to turn out for the May Challenge.

Your post has other inaccuracies - we didn't advertise the heck out of Meadows during the peak time frames - those ads promoted alternative transportation and midweek trips to the mountain. You suggest that we cut operations and staff to maximize profits and then critisize us for doing just that in the next sentence.

We have built a couple of features up on Cascade Park - the weather cooperated and it is open this weekend. Hopefully we'll be able to keep it open next weekend as well (weather permitting).

--Matt

# April 25, 2008 7:55 AM

skibummed said:

I cant belive your closing with 211" on the ground! You are a ski resort right? If you can open weekends only, why not wed-sun. Living in a resort town, you do work weekends to pay your bills, sucks that we cant enjoy the hill without the maddness of weekends. I havent rode a weekend all year.I think Meadows has lost its local appeal. and the parks! Meadows use to be a great place to ride all diferent levels of park features, now were lucky if they are maintained( WHAT LITTLE THERE IS). That fusion pass is looking better and better. Are you guys that ready to start your summer plans off the mountain asap, because it feels that way?

Matt's reply:

skibummed: Thanks for the post - if you have a chance read the replies above. We've addressed why we are going to weekends only and the status of our parks in other posts. The operational schedule is determined by business levels - so we'll see how many people turn out next weekend. It really is up to our guests to prolong the season - we'll see whether they have summer plans off of the mountain.

--Matt

# April 25, 2008 3:43 PM

dustin said:

looks like meadows is finally giving its patrols a little something extra to work with. or at least looking into it. hopefully this will prove effective in getting the terrain open when it is at its best. and hey if not big guns are always fun to play with.

powder to the people its been an amazing snow year so far.

Matt's reply:

Dustin: Thanks for the post. The howitzer should improve our ability to perform A/C work more safely and efficiently. But it isn't about fun - there is a very thorough training program and strict procedures for firing the gun - we take it very seriously.

It has definitely been a great season for powder!

--Matt

# April 26, 2008 10:30 AM

Please Please Respond!! said:

We will be skiing at Meadows this week when you are closed.. Are you going to be bombing?????Please respond. Forecast look great!!!!!!

Matt's reply:

This should serve as a reminder that when the ski area is closed the entire permit area is closed to the public. We may still be performing maintenance operations on the mountain. Those who we encounter on the mountain will be asked to leave the permit area.

--Matt

# April 26, 2008 1:23 PM